CSM Meeting Minutes 4.007
All this data is potentially out of date, and should be taken with a truckload of salt
See also CSM Meeting Minutes 4.007 raw log
CSM 4 meeting 007, Sun 14th March - Meeting Minutes
- 1 Present
- 2 Apologies
- 3 Absent
- 4 Discussion
- 5 Other Business
Meeting started at 18:18
With 8 present the ElvenLord set out the agenda
1 Save and Reuse Probe Bubble Patterns
2 Sorting Deliveries
3 Neuts/NOS on Overview
4 Ship Active Tank Bonus Buff
5 Allow naming any ship in your hanger
6 Align To Bookmarks
7 Character Transfer Transparency and Data Cleanup
8 Localise the CSM Output
TeaDaze stated that Sok had been excused. ElvenLord confirmed he had been contacted ahead of time
TeaDaze pointed out that the proposal had an option on it to restrict saving patterns to core probes only if others had concerns about it being too easy to probe out ships. Meissa Anunthiel didn't see the need for a restriction saying people are rarely in a hurry to probe exploration sites. TeaDaze clarified that the concern would be that it becomes too quick to scan ships. Tea didn't think it would be an issue but wanted to throw it out there as the original proposal mentioned it.
ElvenLord stated that as probes still need time to warp to locations in formation he didn't think it would make it that much faster. Alekseyev Karrde thought the removed frustration will outweigh the demands on pvp'ers trying to evade them, and that the change would be a good.
Korvin stated that it was possible to move a group of probes already and that was enough. Alekseyev Karrde replied that whilst that was correct when moving them statically from one spot to another that changing ranges didn't reform the group and each probe had to be moved individually in that situation.
Vote passed 7 for, 1 against (Korvin)
Z0D thought that this would be good for any corp of any size, but would mostly benefit any corps with lots of items to sort :)
Alekseyev Karrde liked the proposal, though didn't see the need to include sorting or showing assets in impounded hangers stating that if people don't pay their office bills they shouldn't get those items in the assets tab, including all the UI amenities it offers.
Korvin also thought it was a good idea and easy to do. He also thought sorting not by page, but by all pages would be good too.
Vote passed 7 for, 1 against (Alekseyev Karrde)
ElvenLord stated that the proposal was a simple matter of nos/neuts showing up on overview as web, scram, jam do already. Alekseyev Karrde, TeaDaze and Z0D agreed.
ElvenLord continued he found it to be reasonable and expected it when ewar icons were added to the overview in the first place.
Meissa Anunthiel asked about adding energy transfers and remote reppers too. Alekseyev Karrde asked if Meissa had friendly ships on overview. Meissa Anunthiel clarified that in "spider" situations it can be annoying not to be able to see who's feeding you and who isn't. Meissa added that they had friendlies on overview then playing carrier/logistics.
Korvin worried that adding neuts|nos and all transfers could mean too many icons which would make the interface way too overloaded with the info. Zastrow agreed. ElvenLord also agreed adding that Nos/neut is ewar and that would be enough or else the overview would get clogged as Korvin said. TeaDaze agreed with Korvin and Elven that offensive ewar icons were more pressing.
Song Li wondered about having all remote effects as toggles that people could choose for their overview settings which would be the best of both worlds. Alekseyev Karrde thought an option for all remote effects would be a good but added that he didn't think it was worth CCP's time to cover up the clutter. He finished stating that the feature was designed to show offensive ewar effects and it was fine in that role.
Vote passed 8 for
Alekseyev Karrde stated it had been mentioned during the Iceland summit and he was in support but that if anything 10% is too small. ElvenLord stated for the minutes that it was discussed in Iceland partially and unofficially. TeaDaze thought that promoting different options was good and supported the idea adding that the percentage boost could be altered from 10% depending on testing.
Korvin stated his opinion that active tank was good for 1 vs 1 and small fleets any boost should be very slight if at all. ElvenLord agreed with Korvin that the bonus shouldn't be too much and he wouldn't go above a 9-9,5% bonus.
Vote passed 6 for, 2 against (Korvin, Meissa Anunthiel)
TeaDaze suggested it was a pretty simple proposal and that currently it is annoying for carrier pilots or people who assemble ships for corp. Tea suggested a simple right click option and that would be all. Alekseyev Karrde agreed. Z0D stated that it was about time that you could rename ships in your hanger without having to board them.
Vote passed 8 for
TeaDaze said this had already been covered in the bookmarks overhaul but agreed it was a needed change. ElvenLord confirmed it was brought up during the corporate bookmarks discussion during Iceland summit. Z0D thought this would be a most appreciated change.
Vote passed 8 for
Song Li didn't like the idea that toons would be flagged as having been transferred. Meissa Anunthiel stated a similar proposal had been discussed during CSM 3 and CCP objected to clearing data (except for petition related) as they considered the "pristine" value of some characters to be part of their value, among other factors.
Z0D said it was 50/50 on that part when he asked around. Z0D added that to some degree stuff should be optional for cleanup if a user wants to clean up except obvious things that are part of the char.
Meissa Anunthiel also confirmed that CCP had also objected to characters having visibly been traded (passing through a "special" corp). Meissa stated they were not against this proposal but that it should be changed into "making easy to clear data" so it wasn't opposed on the other front.
Korvin stated that a player can clear that info by themselves if they wish and things like combat logs are in the eve history (most being in public killboards) and for those reasons he didn't think it was a good proposal.
ElvenLord stated partial support for transferring to a special corp for security but disagreed with the clearing data part. Alekseyev Karrde thought that having a break in character pvp data would be great but disagreed with scrubbing a character's history.
TeaDaze was not convinced that having a visible flag for a transferred char was a desirable change. Tea added that they had less of an issue with having the option to scrub bookmarks etc but that could be done already by the seller. Meissa Anunthiel was in any case totally against a mandatory passage through a special NPC corp as it would make it impossible for people to sell characters as spies.
Korvin thought that adding the info about the char sale in the employment history was a good idea and that was enough. TeaDaze stated that in theory all for char transfers end up for a small amount of time in an npc corp but that can also happen when people change corps. Tea added that the idea of a special transfer corp is damaging to metagaming and they disliked it. Zastrow also didn't like the idea of branding a character wth a scarlet letter because they were sold
Proposal rejected 7 against, 1 for (Z0D)
ElvenLord suggested that parts of the proposal were kinda OK and people could have some informal talks with a potential rewrite it for next meeting.
ElvenLord joked that he had the feeling CSM talked about this in Iceland, possibly in the hotel lobby.
TeaDaze stated that if the CSM agreed to the idea that it would be up to CCP to decide how best it can be implemented. Tea added that this was not a discussion on a specific implementation but on the overall idea.
Meissa Anunthiel failed to see what was preventing people from localizing things already adding they didn't see why it needed to be voted on. Alekseyev Karrde agreed with Meissa that there was nothing in the game stopping people from posting translated works or adding them to the wiki. ElvenLord answered saying this would be a formal proposal from CSM and that it would have to go trough ISD as they maintained the wiki.
TeaDaze confirmed it was discussed off the record at the hotel, but that was due to the issue being raised too late to be discussed before Iceland and put on the official agenda. Tea added that anything going onto the Wiki would need CCP to agree to the idea. ElvenLord agreed. TeaDaze continued that space had been offered to the proposer on the server that hosts the PDF minutes but that it would be better for them to be on the wiki.
Meissa Anunthiel stated that the wiki is in English with no localization and that all the localization about eve content happens elsewhere. Meissa felt that integrating localisation in the wiki was a bad precedent that would make everyone whine to get everything else localized adding a ton of overhead for the ISD.
Korvin said that he translated some eve materials from English to Russian adding that there are lots of translation problems and you cant just translate everything. Korvin continued that CCP would need something like 20 people just for the Russian localization in this case but that he would like to see devblogs and CSM summary localised.
ElvenLord pointed out that the Eve client was already being localized so why not the wiki too? Elven thought that it would lower the entry level to a lot of data like tutorials and so on not to mention devblogs.
Song Li asked if google translate was sufficient for this kind of thing as that is what they did when visiting non English sites.
Z0D agreed with Korvin and thought those 20 people (for example) could be used for more important things that affect the client of all localisations adding that specific game things should be translated. Korvin stated that Eve client localization is still in progress and it wasn't finished. ElvenLord stated that apart from the English version there was also a German client and few more already running with Russian in preparation.
Meissa Anunthiel stated that for French, German and Spanish that the devblogs are already translated by volunteers on localized "web portals" dedicated to Eve and that they had also seen a couple of localized Russian devblogs as well. Meissa continued that there shouldn't be more burden put on CCP.
TeaDaze confirmed that the idea in the proposal was that people willing to translate would have some way to do so and that this output would be flagged as player translated. Tea added that it shouldn't add a significant overhead to CCP because the wiki had recently been changed to remove moderation outside certain core topics. Tea finished that the proposal was not that CCP translate but that it was a way to reward people for the effort they put in to allow the translations to sit on the same site as the English versions.
ElvenLord stated that the Eve wiki was a central point like the eve-online web site and that trying to find info on other sites takes a lot of time, thus localization on few major languages would be desirable. ElvenLord thought that having the localisations available from the eve-online site would lower entry level and it does not mean it will be more work for CCP itself.
Meissa Anunthiel complained it would add work for the ISD who have to approve the pages. ElvenLord said CCP could always add few volunteers to the ISD that would do only that. Z0D agreed. TeaDaze pointed to the previous statement that the moderation queue on the wiki had been removed outside official pages. ElvenLord finished stated that the exact load and so on can't be determined before consulting CCP and ISD so called for a vote
Vote passed 7 for, 1 against (Meissa Anunthiel)
Next meeting was set for 28th march at 18:00 eve-time
Meeting closed at 19:24