CSM Meeting Minutes 5.009 raw log

From sdeevelopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

All this data is potentially out of date, and should be taken with a truckload of salt

CSM Meeting Minutes 5.009 raw log

Meeting took place on 26th Sept 2010

[ 17:00:37 ] Mynxee > .==================================CSM MEETING 009 CALLED TO ORDER==================================.
[ 17:00:42 ] mazzilliu > its mazz day \o/
[ 17:00:48 ] Vuk Lau > /emote pukes
[ 17:00:55 ] Mynxee > k, x up for roll call if you're present and paying attn
[ 17:00:56 ] mazzilliu > no puking on mazz day
[ 17:00:57 ] Vuk Lau > x
[ 17:00:57 ] mazzilliu > x
[ 17:01:00 ] Mynxee > x
[ 17:01:01 ] Trebor Daehdoow > x
[ 17:01:01 ] ElvenLord > x
[ 17:01:01 ] Vuk Lau > 1st
[ 17:01:01 ] Dierdra Vaal > x
[ 17:01:08 ] T'Amber > X (isn't it Mazz day everyday?)
[ 17:01:12 ] Helen Highwater > x
[ 17:01:47 ] Dierdra Vaal > korvin?
[ 17:02:04 ] Mynxee > /emote taps fingers waiting for Sok and tea
[ 17:02:14 ] Sokratesz > x
[ 17:02:19 ] TeaDaze > x
[ 17:02:20 ] Mynxee > and korvin
[ 17:03:00 ] Mynxee > we have a quorum regardless, so moving on
[ 17:03:13 ] Mynxee > no reminders ... anyone else got any?
[ 17:03:21 ] T'Amber > Can I roleplay as a russian today?
[ 17:03:39 ] Dierdra Vaal > does the CSM wiki stuff count as a reminder?
[ 17:03:43 ] Dierdra Vaal > or is that other business
[ 17:03:53 ] Mynxee > either one, DV
[ 17:04:03 ] Dierdra Vaal > we'll do it at the end :)
[ 17:04:08 ] Mynxee > alright
[ 17:04:17 ] ElvenLord > do it now pls
[ 17:04:25 ] ElvenLord > so we can forget till the end of meeting
[ 17:04:27 ] ElvenLord > :P
[ 17:04:37 ] ElvenLord > since we have a joke meeting after all
[ 17:04:52 ] ElvenLord > considering the proposals on the agenda
[ 17:04:55 ] T'Amber > !
[ 17:05:11 ] T'Amber > Shh, you will ruin mazzday [/end]
[ 17:05:14 ] Mynxee > we'll do it at the end, as DV said. Tamber, go.
[ 17:05:25 ] mazzilliu > account status notification is a well known joke
[ 17:05:27 ] Mynxee > ok movig on to the issues
[ 17:06:07 ] Helen Highwater > !
[ 17:06:08 ] Mynxee > They are all mazz's; first one: CCP Commit to Excellence, No Toppings Left Behind
[ 17:06:14 ] Mynxee > http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CCP_commit_to_excellence%2C_no_toppings_left_behind_%28CSM%29
[ 17:06:29 ] Mynxee > stephan says he will be late, btw but is enroute
[ 17:06:36 ] Mynxee > helen?
[ 17:06:37 ] Helen Highwater > If Korvin is AFK do you want me to vote for him or wait?
[ 17:06:40 ] Helen Highwater > [wnd]
[ 17:06:47 ] Helen Highwater > -w +e
[ 17:06:49 ] Mynxee > yes helen. end.
[ 17:07:02 ] Mynxee > or iain, lol
[ 17:07:05 ] Mynxee > ok mazz go for it.
[ 17:07:08 ] mazzilliu > well i raised this issue because as it turns out i like pizza and i think that using eve to enable more of this pizza stuff to happen is probably a good thing.
[ 17:07:29 ] mazzilliu > and its probably good publicity for ccp, because as it turns out most eve players also happen to like pizza
[ 17:08:01 ] mazzilliu > so anyways thats all, i'd like to give a shoutout to one of my favorite foods too, pizza *bro fist*
[ 17:08:07 ] T'Amber > !
[ 17:08:11 ] Meissa Anunthiel > (o/ sorry to be back)
[ 17:08:14 ] Meissa Anunthiel > (lat)e
[ 17:08:56 ] Mynxee > we jsut got started on the first issue.
[ 17:09:01 ] Mynxee > mazz? done?
[ 17:09:08 ] Meissa Anunthiel > (can you post the link again please?)
[ 17:09:14 ] Mynxee > http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CCP_commit_to_excellence%2C_no_toppings_left_behind_%28CSM%29
[ 17:09:15 ] ALPHA12125 > loo
[ 17:09:21 ] Mynxee > hey alpha
[ 17:09:22 ] mazzilliu > done
[ 17:09:29 ] Mynxee > t'amber go
[ 17:09:35 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:09:41 ] T'Amber > Do we have any hard evidence or statistics to back this proposal? There doesn't look like theres been any proper research[/end]
[ 17:09:47 ] mazzilliu > !
[ 17:09:58 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 17:10:05 ] Vuk Lau > !
[ 17:10:26 ] Meissa Anunthiel > This is fucking retarded. Nuff said.
[ 17:10:29 ] Meissa Anunthiel > [/end]
[ 17:10:47 ] Mynxee > this is a frivolous issue imho and has nothing to do with improving the game. end.
[ 17:10:51 ] Mynxee > mazz go
[ 17:11:20 ] mazzilliu > is not!  this is a publicity opportunity for CCP and can get them more income.  its got a really positive responce from players and not many people have the negative attitude you two do
[ 17:11:32 ] mazzilliu > in the thread i dont see anybody disbarging pizza
[ 17:11:34 ] Helen Highwater > !
[ 17:11:40 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:11:42 ] mazzilliu > because pizza is *trasty*
[ 17:11:47 ] mazzilliu > *tasty**
[ 17:11:49 ] mazzilliu > end
[ 17:11:52 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:11:53 ] Vuk Lau > wtf are we even discussing this. Seriously Mazz go waste your own time somewhere, somehow,
[ 17:11:55 ] Mynxee > vuk go
[ 17:12:02 ] Vuk Lau > fuck no, next topic please
[ 17:12:11 ] Vuk Lau > end
[ 17:12:15 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 17:12:23 ] ElvenLord > and we aer wondering why ppl think bad on CSM when we have retards like mazz in it
[ 17:12:25 ] ElvenLord > :facepalm:
[ 17:12:39 ] Vuk Lau > c
[ 17:12:47 ] Mynxee > i agree with vuk. i was half of mind to disallow this topic. but it got many supports in ah and thus i decided to let it play out in all its glory here. but it is ridiculous.
[ 17:12:48 ] mazzilliu > >O<
[ 17:12:50 ] Mynxee > helen go
[ 17:12:56 ] Helen Highwater > Sony did the same thing years ago in Everquest just FYI. The /pizza command in collaboration with Dominos was not a success.[end]
[ 17:13:07 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 17:13:09 ] Meissa Anunthiel > Our job is not to focus on CCP's income, they do that well enough. The focus of the CSM is to improve the *game* not the revenue stream. Stop wasting everyone's time with this kind of thing. Thx. [/end]
[ 17:13:17 ] Mynxee > dv go
[ 17:13:31 ] Dierdra Vaal > I'm actually tempted to vote yes, as I'm curious to know how CCP feels about this...
[ 17:13:42 ] Dierdra Vaal > and the issue actually got a sizable amount of support from players.
[ 17:13:52 ] Dierdra Vaal > Though I dont think it would be high priority
[ 17:13:53 ] Dierdra Vaal > end
[ 17:13:55 ] T'Amber > ^^
[ 17:14:08 ] Vuk Lau > wtf
[ 17:14:14 ] Mynxee > let's vote, i don't think there is a need for further analysis of this.
[ 17:14:20 ] Vuk Lau > no
[ 17:14:21 ] Mynxee > Y or N on this issue?
[ 17:14:23 ] Mynxee > N
[ 17:14:23 ] Meissa Anunthiel > no
[ 17:14:24 ] Trebor Daehdoow > NO
[ 17:14:25 ] mazzilliu > y
[ 17:14:25 ] TeaDaze > n
[ 17:14:26 ] Dierdra Vaal > y
[ 17:14:37 ] ElvenLord > n
[ 17:15:56 ] Dierdra Vaal > pretty sure elvenlord cant vote?
[ 17:16:06 ] Helen Highwater > Tamber is the only atlt with a vote
[ 17:16:12 ] Vuk Lau > well if others are afk
[ 17:16:12 ] Helen Highwater > (for Korvin)
[ 17:16:18 ] Mynxee > yup
[ 17:16:28 ] Meissa Anunthiel > and sok has to vote, someday
[ 17:16:33 ] Mynxee > alts vote for nonpresent members by position in the alt list
[ 17:16:35 ] Vuk Lau > then the next active alt have right to vote
[ 17:16:47 ] Vuk Lau > and sok is proly drooling on the phone with his gf
[ 17:16:51 ] Sokratesz > n
[ 17:16:53 ] Vuk Lau > or faping on her picture on facebook
[ 17:17:08 ] Sokratesz > i kicked out my monitor cable had to fix it
[ 17:17:10 ] Mynxee > sok: pay attn; i expect responses to vote requests w/in one minute
[ 17:17:45 ] Vuk Lau > [17:16:35] Sokratesz > i kicked out my monitor cable while faping and had to fix it
[ 17:17:55 ] TeaDaze > Failed, 2 for, 6 against - Can we get on?
[ 17:18:04 ] Mynxee > Next Up: Self Destruct and Logoff Timer Mechnanics http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Self_destruct_and_logoff_timer_mechanics_%28CSM%29
[ 17:18:12 ] Mynxee > mazz, you have the floor
[ 17:18:12 ] ElvenLord > !
[ 17:18:36 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 17:19:01 ] mazzilliu > the issue is to change logoff timer mechanics so that if they are shot after being logged off, their timer gets reset.  this is so that gangs with low dps can kill big ships that have logged off recklessly
[ 17:19:06 ] Sokratesz > !
[ 17:19:12 ] mazzilliu > if the crash was legitimate they can log back on it wont make a difference
[ 17:19:19 ] Helen Highwater > !
[ 17:19:22 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:19:24 ] Vuk Lau > !
[ 17:19:29 ] mazzilliu > if they are just trying to run from a fight, and stay logged off, they won't be so likely to get away
[ 17:19:36 ] mazzilliu > end
[ 17:19:42 ] Mynxee > el go
[ 17:19:45 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:19:45 ] ElvenLord > both of those topics along with proposed solutions are in the backlog as separate issues done by CSM4 and CSM3
[ 17:20:12 ] mazzilliu > not with thie specific solution
[ 17:20:19 ] ElvenLord > each of issues have 3-4 solutions proposed and it has been left to CCP to pick one together with CSM
[ 17:20:24 ] TeaDaze > ( Self destruct rebalancing as passed by CSM4 - http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Balance_self-destruction_%28CSM%29 )
[ 17:20:27 ] Vuk Lau > what elven said
[ 17:20:30 ] ElvenLord > so I do not understand why is this here again?
[ 17:20:32 ] ElvenLord > [end]
[ 17:20:33 ] Vuk Lau > c
[ 17:20:47 ] Mynxee > teadaze go
[ 17:20:53 ] TeaDaze > Passed 8/1 for ship size changes timer
[ 17:21:24 ] TeaDaze > So I say this is a duplicate and should be dropped [end]
[ 17:21:34 ] mazzilliu > !
[ 17:21:41 ] Mynxee > sok go
[ 17:21:42 ] ElvenLord > just to add, you might want to ask for status update on those
[ 17:21:44 ] Korvin > hi all
[ 17:21:51 ] Sokratesz > i was about to say the same, best we can do it bump ccp about it again cause i've been getting more complaints about the current mechanics lately [end]
[ 17:21:58 ] Mynxee > hi korvin
[ 17:22:05 ] Mynxee > bumps do not require a vote.
[ 17:22:07 ] Mynxee > helen go
[ 17:22:09 ] Helen Highwater > AFAIK this will make no difference at all. If the person logs on a different cahracter on the same account then the old one will vanish instantly anyhow. Changing that mechanic would open up a whole can of worms with multiple characters on the same
[ 17:22:32 ] Helen Highwater > account active on the server simultaneously with all the potential for abuse that has with it. [end]
[ 17:22:36 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 17:22:39 ] Meissa Anunthiel > If the crash was legitimate, you just gave everyone free gank. And for self-destruct, I favour increasing the timer for caps, but as it is self destruct is (or should be) a "strategic" decision one can make, your proposal negates that. So I'm fine with
[ 17:22:54 ] Meissa Anunthiel > lengthening the SD timer, but not with your proposal, on neither of the 2 aspects. [/end]
[ 17:23:02 ] Mynxee > vuk go
[ 17:23:15 ] Vuk Lau > sec
[ 17:23:26 ] Vuk Lau > 1st thing - what elven said, so I dont see a point of the issue
[ 17:23:36 ] Vuk Lau > 2nd - @Hellen, its not working always
[ 17:23:50 ] Vuk Lau > 3rd - lets go to next issue
[ 17:23:55 ] Vuk Lau > 4th - end
[ 17:24:03 ] Mynxee > mazz go, final words
[ 17:24:09 ] mazzilliu > that issue isnt identical to this issue.  its self destruct and logoff timer.  anyways most of the csm issues are re-raises of the old ones, so we can just bug ccp about the issue ststus
[ 17:24:11 ] Dierdra Vaal > err
[ 17:24:14 ] Dierdra Vaal > I had an !
[ 17:24:20 ] Mynxee > oh dv sorry
[ 17:24:30 ] mazzilliu > also this issue doesnt change what happens to people with legitimate crashes.  because those people generally log back on within 15 minutes
[ 17:24:34 ] mazzilliu > end
[ 17:24:35 ] T'Amber > back
[ 17:24:37 ] Dierdra Vaal > this is more of a clarity thing: can you adjust the text under 'Summary' to describe the current state rather than a slightly cryptic description of the solution? The wording is very confusing otherwise. .... (cont)
[ 17:24:38 ] Mynxee > dv go
[ 17:25:11 ] Dierdra Vaal > ...also, I do agree with maz that its not a duplicate of the self destruct issue as this issue requests that the timer is refreshed on damage.
[ 17:25:40 ] Dierdra Vaal > whether the merit of the idea is open for discussion, its not the same as simply increasing the time on a self destruct timer based on ship size
[ 17:25:40 ] Dierdra Vaal > end
[ 17:25:51 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:25:58 ] Mynxee > meissa
[ 17:26:38 ] Meissa Anunthiel > It changes everything for legitimate crashes, because if it happens out of combat, you get free ganking on the person. [/end]
[ 17:26:55 ] mazzilliu > !
[ 17:27:00 ] Mynxee > mazz go
[ 17:27:13 ] mazzilliu > meissa, the person will dissappear in 2 minutes if not shot under my proposal, there is no change for "out of combat" situations
[ 17:27:23 ] mazzilliu > if they do get shot, it gets extended to 15
[ 17:27:36 ] mazzilliu > you dfont usually get probed down and shot within 2 minutes in a non combat situation
[ 17:27:38 ] mazzilliu > end
[ 17:28:01 ] Mynxee > you can't probe a ship out in two minutes?! LOL. I can. end.
[ 17:28:04 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 17:28:11 ] Mynxee > tea go
[ 17:28:14 ] Meissa Anunthiel > (as per your proposal "if a player logs off and is probed down and shot", doesn't mention "while being under attack")
[ 17:28:26 ] mazzilliu > !
[ 17:28:32 ] Dierdra Vaal > isnt being shot == under attack?
[ 17:28:35 ] mazzilliu > what does "while being under attack" mean?
[ 17:29:09 ] Mynxee > teadaze go
[ 17:29:16 ] TeaDaze > I think the Self destruct issue already raised should be discussed with CCP again. As to the logoff timer, 15 mins is fine for everything but supercaps, and if you can't find enough DPS in a few mins to kill it then that is your problem
[ 17:29:47 ] TeaDaze > I will not support the ability to have a rolling timer where somebody who is DCed in combat can be held agressed till downtime
[ 17:30:00 ] mazzilliu > !
[ 17:30:24 ] TeaDaze > So, SD is covered in already raised proposal. Logoff timer is not a huge problem [end]
[ 17:30:26 ] Sokratesz > !
[ 17:30:31 ] Mynxee > mazz go
[ 17:30:32 ] mazzilliu > what in the world would someone have to gain to keep someone aggressed while logged off until downtime?  that doesnt even make sense
[ 17:30:36 ] mazzilliu > end
[ 17:30:38 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 17:30:41 ] Mynxee > sok go
[ 17:30:42 ] Sokratesz > i agree with teadaze there, infinite holding should *not* be possible [end]
[ 17:30:52 ] Mynxee > td go
[ 17:31:25 ] TeaDaze > Giving people the ability to hold a target on a rolling timer until they can get more numbers is my point. You could basically hold somebody for 23 hours to get a kill. [end]
[ 17:31:46 ] mazzilliu > !
[ 17:31:57 ] Mynxee > it sounds like there does need to be a vote here, btw. mazz go
[ 17:32:07 ] mazzilliu > that is the entire point.  but you would have a really terrible gang to have so little dps that you cant kill something for 23 hours
[ 17:32:08 ] mazzilliu > end
[ 17:32:22 ] Korvin > !
[ 17:32:29 ] Mynxee > korvin go
[ 17:32:52 ] Korvin > i suggest to rename this proposal as - as a player i want to kill afk and lost connection ppl
[ 17:33:05 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 17:33:07 ] Korvin > and im strongly against it :P [end]
[ 17:33:17 ] Mynxee > trebor go
[ 17:33:36 ] Trebor Daehdoow > "mazzilliu > what in the world would someone have to gain to keep someone aggressed while logged off until downtime?  that doesnt even make sense" -- somehow I think the brilliant minds of PL will find a use for this. [end]
[ 17:33:49 ] Vuk Lau > ROFL, wanted to say the same
[ 17:33:57 ] Mynxee > let's vote on this issue. Y or N to pass it?
[ 17:34:00 ] Vuk Lau > no
[ 17:34:01 ] TeaDaze > N
[ 17:34:02 ] Korvin > N
[ 17:34:02 ] Meissa Anunthiel > No
[ 17:34:03 ] Dierdra Vaal > N
[ 17:34:03 ] Mynxee > N
[ 17:34:05 ] Trebor Daehdoow > NO
[ 17:34:11 ] mazzilliu > yes
[ 17:34:12 ] Sokratesz > n
[ 17:34:24 ] TeaDaze > Failed, 1 for, 8 against
[ 17:34:36 ] Mynxee > Next up: Fix Blasters http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Fix_blasters_%28CSM%29 you have the floor mazz.
[ 17:34:42 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:34:53 ] ElvenLord > !
[ 17:34:59 ] mazzilliu > ok, that is a proposal that is one way to fix blasters
[ 17:35:12 ] Vuk Lau > !
[ 17:35:18 ] Sokratesz > !
[ 17:35:18 ] mazzilliu > ccp really ought to look at rebalancing ships more often, and make changes in smaller incrememts, but this is just one little thing i guess
[ 17:35:19 ] mazzilliu > end
[ 17:35:31 ] Mynxee > dv go
[ 17:35:42 ] Dierdra Vaal > While I think hybrid guns could use looking at - I dont think we should simply say "do X to fix them" (in this case, increase range). I also think that the information in this proposal is too limited. ... (cont)
[ 17:35:48 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 17:35:56 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:36:17 ] Dierdra Vaal > ...we make these proposals so devs can read them and get an idea of what is going on/needs to happen. Saying "go read thread X to find out the details" is not sufficient imo. end
[ 17:36:26 ] Mynxee > Elven go
[ 17:36:45 ] ElvenLord > again, proposal came up in CSM2, CSM3 and CSM4, ended up with discussion with CCP and them commiting to look into rebalansing of hybrid guns as total. Should be in meeting minutes from a summit.
[ 17:37:06 ] ElvenLord > here too you should ask for a follow up from CCP
[ 17:37:12 ] ElvenLord > ./end
[ 17:37:16 ] Mynxee > vuk go
[ 17:37:30 ] Vuk Lau > well 1st what Elven said :p
[ 17:37:50 ] Vuk Lau > but for the sake of discussion I agree with DV that issue was poorly written
[ 17:38:00 ] Vuk Lau > but I cant complain much cause I hate wiki
[ 17:38:22 ] Vuk Lau > anyway I disagree that the range should be increased, despite range being the biggest problem with blasters
[ 17:38:55 ] Korvin > !
[ 17:39:01 ] Vuk Lau > there are other ways to balance blasters but as I already said problem of hybrids is old issue already discussed with CCP
[ 17:39:10 ] Vuk Lau > end
[ 17:39:14 ] Mynxee > sok go
[ 17:39:16 ] Sokratesz > i am against this particular suggestion, their extremely short range coupled with high agility of their specialised ships makes them 'special', this would just start getting into autocannon territory. I do however want an update from CCP about the
[ 17:39:17 ] Sokratesz > imbalances they are looking to fix in the next months, because they seemed receptive to it when we were in Iceland. [end]
[ 17:39:23 ] Mynxee > teadaze go
[ 17:39:59 ] TeaDaze > I've been discussing hybrid changes (not just blasters) with various people over the last month and we've come up with a counter proposal which is more than "fix hybrids"
[ 17:40:27 ] TeaDaze > I can give the basic outline and suggest we discuss it amonst ourselves in two weeks
[ 17:40:50 ] TeaDaze > Mostly because there isn't any rush to get stuff ready for the December submissions [end]
[ 17:40:58 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 17:41:00 ] Meissa Anunthiel > First, the "blaster issue" is one that has been raised in at least 3 of the past 4 CSMs, stop flogging the dead horse. 2nd, blasters have awesome DPS. That comes with a constraint, but nothing for nothing... Not everything has to be perfect in all situa
[ 17:41:08 ] Meissa Anunthiel > situations. Today, you brought up 3 totally worthless proposals, you really are taking ankhe's place... Don't bother showing up if it's to keep wasting everyone's time. [/end]
[ 17:41:19 ] Mynxee > korvin go
[ 17:41:39 ] Korvin > I agree that Hybrid guns are need some boost, blasters and reailgins, but not by simply giving the range to the blasters.
[ 17:41:46 ] Korvin > It doesn't solves a lots of issues, most of the hybrid ammo will be still useless,and blasters will lose their role, making them like a lasers with an ammo.
[ 17:41:54 ] Korvin > There is something that might be done with the hybrid ammo instead, making it different by the rate of fire, trackking ets, making a good aplha on a long range and good tracking on a short range.
[ 17:42:01 ] Korvin > But not via the simple range bonus.
[ 17:42:05 ] Korvin > [end]
[ 17:42:11 ] TeaDaze > (Do you want the outline?)
[ 17:42:54 ] Mynxee > i'd rather we save that til the end of the issues list so we can get thru these?
[ 17:43:18 ] Mynxee > but i want to see the outline, yes.
[ 17:43:38 ] TeaDaze > Now? I can cnp
[ 17:43:48 ] Mynxee > ok
[ 17:43:58 ] T'Amber > !
[ 17:43:59 ] TeaDaze > Ammo changes made a great difference to projectiles. 3 range bands, different damage types within ranges, tracking bonuses to medium and long range
[ 17:44:09 ] TeaDaze > Suggestion for hybrids - 3 range bands.
[ 17:44:19 ] Mynxee > it will be useful info in determining the vote for this issue, anyway.
[ 17:44:20 ] TeaDaze > Within range bands have a lower tracking, higher alpha (but lower rate of fire so constant DPS) a higher tracking, lower alpha (but higher ROF) and a balanced option.
[ 17:44:38 ] TeaDaze > Also reduce the time taken to change ammo / reload to 5 seconds. This not only gives lots of flexibilty but it also ensures hybrids are unique.
[ 17:45:18 ] TeaDaze > I have more, but that is basically the idea. Fix the ammo, give flexibility and allow ships to change from long to short range ammo as they power into range [end]
[ 17:45:33 ] TeaDaze > (Also allows rails to alpha with a slower rof)
[ 17:45:39 ] mazzilliu > !!
[ 17:45:39 ] Mynxee > whether that proposal were to pass or not when raised, it is at least specific and easy to understand. end.
[ 17:45:45 ] Mynxee > tamber go
[ 17:46:06 ] Mynxee > btw we are NOT going to debate and discuss the outline teadaze just provided. that is for FUTURE discussion.
[ 17:46:15 ] T'Amber > is it not a CSM's right to bring up topics they think that the player base would like represented, Regardless of what stance other CSM's have on these issues. [/end]
[ 17:46:25 ] Mynxee > just consider it in light of the vote on mazz's issue.
[ 17:46:44 ] Korvin > !
[ 17:46:50 ] Mynxee > korvin go
[ 17:46:58 ] Vuk Lau > !
[ 17:47:10 ] mazzilliu > you forgot my !
[ 17:47:19 ] Mynxee > mazz go sorry
[ 17:47:25 ] Korvin > I suggest to change the propsal, to something like - boost hybrid weapons with the CSM suggestion taking in a consideration
[ 17:47:27 ] Mynxee > then korvin can go afte ryou
[ 17:47:37 ] Korvin > with no particular range issue
[ 17:47:41 ] mazzilliu > if we cant agree on the details of the proposal we can just have it reworded to say "CCP GO LOOK AT BLASTERS" we know they arent going to blindly implement all our changes anyways, theyre going to do their own thing
[ 17:47:46 ] Korvin > just to make ccp think about it
[ 17:47:49 ] Korvin > [end]
[ 17:48:05 ] mazzilliu > anyways about the flogging the dead horse stuff, flogging all the dead horses is exactly what we need to be doing.  when ccp is not sure of the status of something they ask us to bring it again if we really want it
[ 17:48:15 ] mazzilliu > if we dont bring up things repeatedly they will fall through the cracks and never be done
[ 17:48:33 ] mazzilliu > also stop insulting me its unprofessional, even though its something you like to accuse me of being
[ 17:48:36 ] mazzilliu > end
[ 17:48:42 ] Mynxee > (we can do that without raising the issue as a vote; that's what the summit dsicusion sessions are for)
[ 17:48:44 ] Mynxee > vuk go
[ 17:48:51 ] Vuk Lau > [17:48:47] Mynxee > (we can do that without raising the issue as a vote; that's what the summit dsicusion sessions are for) - this
[ 17:48:59 ] Vuk Lau > and can we vote on this particular issue
[ 17:49:00 ] Vuk Lau > end
[ 17:49:15 ] Mynxee > yes let's vote. Y or N? as worded currently.
[ 17:49:18 ] Meissa Anunthiel > No
[ 17:49:20 ] Trebor Daehdoow > NO
[ 17:49:21 ] TeaDaze > n
[ 17:49:21 ] Mynxee > n
[ 17:49:25 ] Sokratesz > n
[ 17:49:31 ] mazzilliu > yes
[ 17:49:35 ] Dierdra Vaal > no (though I would urge maz to bring it up with CCP based on past issues)
[ 17:49:45 ] mazzilliu > !
[ 17:49:45 ] Vuk Lau > n
[ 17:49:45 ] Korvin > n (tho i want to boost them desperatly)
[ 17:50:14 ] TeaDaze > Failed 1 for, 8 against
[ 17:50:20 ] Mynxee > next up: Covert Reconfiguration Offensive Subsystems http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Covert_Reconfiguration_Offensive_Subsystems_%28CSM%29
[ 17:50:21 ] mazzilliu > where are all these processes being outlined, where it says when something can be brought up outside of voting because i clearly didnt read the memo
[ 17:50:21 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 17:50:40 ] Mynxee > mazz... if you read the minutes, its obvious
[ 17:50:46 ] TeaDaze > (It would be asking CCP for an update on an already passed issue)
[ 17:51:13 ] Mynxee > please present the next issue mazz
[ 17:51:20 ] mazzilliu > okay then.  i did read the minutes but it wasnt obvious
[ 17:51:20 ] mazzilliu > okay
[ 17:51:29 ] mazzilliu > that issue is to fix an inconsistancy with the item description
[ 17:51:43 ] mazzilliu > either make it do what you say it does, or take it out of the description
[ 17:51:44 ] mazzilliu > end
[ 17:51:48 ] Helen Highwater > !
[ 17:51:51 ] Mynxee > i thought this has already been fixed. Trebor, go.
[ 17:51:53 ] Trebor Daehdoow > The proposal is invalid on its face. The description of Covert Reconfiguration subsystems does not say they can fit covert cynos.
[ 17:51:55 ] Trebor Daehdoow > It says they can fit covert cloaks. I am surprised you did not bother to fact-check this proposal. This lack of preparation and due-diligence seems to be an unfortunate pattern. [end]
[ 17:52:10 ] Mynxee > helen go
[ 17:52:15 ] Helen Highwater > Isn;t this a bug report rather than an issue as such?
[ 17:52:38 ] mazzilliu > !
[ 17:52:40 ] Helen Highwater > But what Trebor said I huess [end]
[ 17:52:43 ] Mynxee > mazz go
[ 17:52:57 ] mazzilliu > i cant fit the mod.  so no i cant really fact check, without at least a month of prep time
[ 17:53:07 ] mazzilliu > so dont blame me i took my corpmate's word for it
[ 17:53:08 ] Dierdra Vaal > you can look it up on the market...
[ 17:53:09 ] mazzilliu > end
[ 17:53:16 ] Mynxee > ump Show Info?
[ 17:53:26 ] Meissa Anunthiel > loki offensive - covert reconfiguration
[ 17:53:26 ] Korvin > covert cyno
[ 17:53:28 ] Meissa Anunthiel > there you go
[ 17:53:35 ] Korvin > Note: can only be fitted on Black Ops, Covert Ops, Stealth Bombers and force Recon Ships.
[ 17:53:46 ] Korvin > its written on a module itself
[ 17:53:57 ] T'Amber > covert
[ 17:54:01 ] Dierdra Vaal > considering this is no longer applicable (and should have been a bug report to begin with), I think we can scratch this issue?
[ 17:54:09 ] Vuk Lau > yes
[ 17:54:19 ] Mynxee > yes. this issue is withdrawn from consideration.
[ 17:54:20 ] mazzilliu > okay scratch it, probably should be a bug report
[ 17:54:21 ] Mynxee > moving on...
[ 17:54:35 ] Mynxee > CSM Issue About GMs and Bans http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Csm_issue_about_gms_and_bans_%28CSM%29
[ 17:54:42 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 17:54:55 ] Mynxee > mazz present your issue, please.
[ 17:55:00 ] mazzilliu > issue is to make it automatically reimburse your lost gametime if you get unbanned by a gm and are found not guilty
[ 17:55:19 ] mazzilliu > because apparently it doesnt.  and no i havent been banned to test it myself, i did take someone's word on this one too
[ 17:55:20 ] mazzilliu > end
[ 17:55:25 ] Vuk Lau > !
[ 17:55:29 ] Mynxee > teadaze go
[ 17:55:30 ] T'Amber > !
[ 17:55:38 ] TeaDaze > I support this fully, customers wrongly accused should have their game time reimbursed [end]
[ 17:55:46 ] Mynxee > vuk go
[ 17:55:52 ] Vuk Lau > i dont see aproblem with this issue, tis a valid concern, lets vote
[ 17:55:56 ] Vuk Lau > its*
[ 17:55:57 ] Vuk Lau > end
[ 17:56:00 ] Mynxee > tamber go
[ 17:56:27 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:56:28 ] T'Amber > what vuk said
[ 17:56:32 ] T'Amber > [/end]
[ 17:56:38 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 17:57:17 ] Meissa Anunthiel > I believe the GMs already do that, at least the reports I've had were that they gave it, but if there have been cases where it wasn't the case, it's worth bringing it to their attention
[ 17:57:19 ] Meissa Anunthiel > [/end]
[ 17:57:21 ] mazzilliu > !
[ 17:57:28 ] Mynxee > mazz go
[ 17:57:31 ] mazzilliu > meissa is correct, but you have to specifically ask for it, and it takes time
[ 17:57:40 ] mazzilliu > its not the best way to do things from a customer service standpoint
[ 17:57:42 ] T'Amber > !
[ 17:57:49 ] mazzilliu > because 1 it can be automated, 2 not everybpdy asks or knows to ask
[ 17:57:52 ] Mynxee > tamber
[ 17:57:56 ] mazzilliu > 3 people can get pissed off because of this
[ 17:57:57 ] mazzilliu > end
[ 17:57:58 ] Mynxee > oops sorry mazz
[ 17:58:03 ] Mynxee > tamber now go
[ 17:58:03 ] T'Amber > I have a friend who was banned for some unknown reason, and they actually gave up playing cause it was taking so long to sort
[ 17:58:25 ] T'Amber > They were on holiday and not even playing when their accound got closed
[ 17:58:31 ] T'Amber > [/end]
[ 17:58:34 ] Mynxee > ok let's vote on this. it's straightforward and clear. Y or N to pass this one?
[ 17:58:38 ] mazzilliu > yes
[ 17:58:39 ] Dierdra Vaal > y
[ 17:58:39 ] Mynxee > Y
[ 17:58:43 ] Korvin > Y
[ 17:58:51 ] Meissa Anunthiel > yes
[ 17:58:56 ] TeaDaze > y
[ 17:58:57 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Y
[ 17:59:00 ] Vuk Lau > y
[ 17:59:00 ] Sokratesz > y
[ 17:59:05 ] TeaDaze > Passed 9 for
[ 17:59:13 ] Mynxee > OK ... Next Up: List of Sov Complaints http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/List_of_Sov_Complaints_%28CSM%29
[ 17:59:16 ] Mynxee > mazz, present!
[ 17:59:19 ] ElvenLord > !
[ 17:59:25 ] mazzilliu > i collected a list of sov complaints from my corpmates and people on eveo
[ 17:59:44 ] mazzilliu > sov was implemented at the beginning of this year, and its pretty known that its not a completely implemented design
[ 17:59:47 ] Vuk Lau > !
[ 18:00:17 ] mazzilliu > ive been led to believe that there are parts of sov that were supposed to be implemented to counteract many of the complaints here, but never got implemented, so things are in the state that they are in now
[ 18:00:45 ] mazzilliu > basically i want to ask ccp to look at sov again and give the game mechanic serious consideration.  its one of the issues i get the most and the loudest complaints about
[ 18:01:04 ] Helen Highwater > !
[ 18:01:08 ] mazzilliu > i dont have specific solutions because i dont like to ask for new features in csm proposals, and i know ccp has their own ideas anyways.  i just want ccp to look at sov
[ 18:01:16 ] mazzilliu > end
[ 18:01:31 ] Mynxee > elvenlord, go
[ 18:01:31 ] ElvenLord > this is gonna be a long one so prepare to read a wall of text
[ 18:01:38 ] Mynxee > :)
[ 18:01:42 ] ElvenLord > To start by saying there are some things that could and should be improved in sovereignty system but afaik almost none of these list in this proposal are one of them.
[ 18:01:47 ] ElvenLord > Some of the listed things have already been mentioned in proper issues/proposals and either declined or passed by CSM and have been discussed with CCP.
[ 18:01:49 ] T'Amber > covert
[ 18:01:55 ] ElvenLord > As for features that where dropped in the new system that caused the system not to act as it was originally designed one of the key features was overhaul of standings system and with it the treaties.
[ 18:02:01 ] ElvenLord > This has already been raised, discussed in CSM and with CCP and is in the backlog.One of the things that came with new sov system is significantly reduced grinding.
[ 18:02:08 ] ElvenLord > Amount of HP on stations and station services was also a proposal raised and discussed with CCP, also passed and is in backlog.
[ 18:02:17 ] ElvenLord > One of the solutions that was passed for small gang warfare was to reduce HP on station services to give them a juicy target.
[ 18:02:26 ] ElvenLord > This came from the discussion with CCP as a good solution and is in back log. As for station HP, it is one of 2 conditions for taking a sov in a system, it is supposed to be hard to get it.
[ 18:02:33 ] ElvenLord > Let me remind you eve is not HON or WOW, nothing is instant. If you want instant solutions go play another game. EVE requires a lot of team work, planning and dedication aka effort.
[ 18:02:41 ] ElvenLord > As for statement that sov relies only on numbers I will just say bullshit. PL, Ev0ke, cry havoc and so many other alliances are prime example of that.
[ 18:02:47 ] ElvenLord > They are capable of taking sov from enemies 5x bigger then they are with good team work, dedication and organisation. So if you don't have those you prolly should not hold sov in the first place.
[ 18:02:52 ] ElvenLord > Not to mention the number of system that change hands on a daily basis with new sov rather then it was with the old system.
[ 18:02:59 ] ElvenLord > Second thing here is that sov take a lot of work to build (not something you know off). To create a good living environment takes months of work, it takes dedication etc. It should not be able to fall instantly like some ppl would like.
[ 18:03:08 ] ElvenLord > If you want it then you need to work, there are no instant win buttons in eve, and never there should be any.
[ 18:03:19 ] ElvenLord > �Capital, supercapital, station, cynojammer, jump bridge, large structure inflation.� The only inflation that came here was supercapital HP, and it was long awaited one,
[ 18:03:27 ] mazzilliu > !
[ 18:03:29 ] Korvin > !
[ 18:03:30 ] ElvenLord > tho I must agree that supercarriers are a bit overinflated, as they have the same EHP as titans, and thats not a good thing (price/building time vs HP).
[ 18:03:33 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 18:03:35 ] ElvenLord > On the other hand with few scarriers you take the station in a blink of an eye, so that's it about too much EHP :S
[ 18:03:45 ] ElvenLord > True problem here is not the timer or EHP its the politics/diplomacy in eve, but again if you can not handle that part of eve you should go play missions or find another game. Politics is not something you can limit by game mechanics or design.
[ 18:03:50 ] ElvenLord > I agree dreads have kinda lost their unique purpose and have become the new BS, but hey its life.
[ 18:03:56 ] ElvenLord > As for sov warfare not being fun, its not all the time, but then again its not supposed to be. Fights are fun on the other hand but then again, opponent can always choose not to give you one and that is something you can not control.
[ 18:04:01 ] ElvenLord > Then there is the expectation and waiting part that can be fun etc. Let me just quote you its a �necessary evil�, and if you look at it that way then where is the problem? Initiating sov warfare brings the fun part.
[ 18:04:17 ] ElvenLord > And now comes funny part, �proposal� complains about timers and then says that only a small amount of time determines fate of sov but before that its said they are too long. Let me just point to 2 quotes  �Timers are way too long� and
[ 18:04:28 ] ElvenLord > �Only a small amount of time determines the fate of sov.� SO wich one is it?
[ 18:04:32 ] Mynxee > just to be sure i havent lost the plot: next in line to talk: vuk, Helen, mazz, korvin, meissa.
[ 18:04:35 ] ElvenLord > As I said few times not, taking, building, maintaining and eventually losing sovereignty are processes and as suck require time, determination and effort (work). That's whats good about them and what makes them worth while.
[ 18:04:41 ] ElvenLord > . If we change those then there is no satisfaction in any of them, and eve will not be the game we all love and sometimes hate but we keep playing it for years.
[ 18:04:46 ] ElvenLord > Last statement you wrote about lag is not something that is linked to game mechanics of sov warfare, it is something that affects entire game and all activities in it.
[ 18:04:52 ] ElvenLord > To wrap it up, sov does maybe need few tweaks here and there and yes scarriers should get a reduction in HP (like 15-20%) but none of the other things you mentioned are even worth reading.
[ 18:04:58 ] ElvenLord > Again if you want something happening instantly go play some other game, eve is not for you.
[ 18:05:04 ] ElvenLord > For the tweaks here and there there is like 12-13 suggestions passed by CSM and CCP that are in the backlog that will improve sov or some sov-related activities. But until then ... new sov is good (perfect compared to previous system).
[ 18:05:07 ] Dierdra Vaal > (( I have to go afk briefly ))
[ 18:05:07 ] ElvenLord > [end]
[ 18:05:17 ] Mynxee > vuk you're next. go
[ 18:05:32 ] Vuk Lau > ok, sorry for not pretyping I didnt know what Elven will post, but I will try to be brief and fast (sorry for typos)
[ 18:05:32 ] Mynxee > (and thanks for that insightful long response, EL)
[ 18:05:49 ] Vuk Lau > as the addition what Elven said
[ 18:06:02 ] Vuk Lau > well,,,I dont have nothing to add :(
[ 18:06:10 ] Mynxee > lol
[ 18:06:10 ] Vuk Lau > [18:04:57] ElvenLord > To wrap it up, sov does maybe need few tweaks here and there and yes scarriers should get a reduction in HP (like 15-20%) but none of the other things you mentioned are even worth reading.
[ 18:06:11 ] Vuk Lau > this
[ 18:06:13 ] Vuk Lau > end
[ 18:06:21 ] Mynxee > helen go
[ 18:06:26 ] Helen Highwater > When Dominion was released, there was devpost saying that the system we saw at launch was just a start and that the system would be iterated on over time. That hasn't happened. The same thing was said of PI in Tyrannis and the winter expansion will be
[ 18:06:33 ] Vuk Lau > !
[ 18:06:42 ] Sokratesz > !
[ 18:07:22 ] Helen Highwater > iterated on. This is sending out a fairly clear message in my opinion. Sovereignty is finished and complete so we are stuck with the system we curentyl have but planetville will continue to see dev-attention.
[ 18:07:45 ] Helen Highwater > that's a pretty demoralising realisation for most 0.0 dwellers tbh [emd]
[ 18:07:57 ] Mynxee > mazz you're next. go.
[ 18:08:00 ] mazzilliu > inflation- i am talking about how many people have them not their HPalso nothing in the proposal asks for any instant win button.  and are you seriously arguing to keep sov warfare not fun like its a good thing?
[ 18:08:15 ] ElvenLord > !
[ 18:08:20 ] mazzilliu > about timers- what i mean is theres a long wait, and then all of a sudden you can shoot stuff again, and it either gets destroyed, or the fleet trying to destroy it gets destroyed
[ 18:08:35 ] T'Amber > covert
[ 18:08:40 ] mazzilliu > i think you misunderstood some of the complaints that i bought up, elvenlord, but i also dont think that sov has to be not fun
[ 18:08:47 ] Mynxee > tamber stop it
[ 18:09:23 ] mazzilliu > like helen said ccp promised iteration and we haven't got any, so we need to bug them about it
[ 18:10:04 ] mazzilliu > i dont want to dictate whatever sov will end up being, but i think that whatever it is, if we can fix some of the long grind stuff, then things won't be so bad
[ 18:10:48 ] mazzilliu > i know that theres lots of activity with systems getting taken out and sov changing hands, but people will do stuff that isn't fun just so they can gain something, so total activity level isnt always the best indicator of how great sov is
[ 18:11:19 ] mazzilliu > anyways thats all
[ 18:11:27 ] mazzilliu > i mean end
[ 18:11:28 ] Mynxee > (Incidentally, I can our December Summit session agenda shaping up based on a number of discussion points in today's meeting. )Korvin, go.
[ 18:11:36 ] Mynxee > korvin go
[ 18:11:38 ] Korvin > Dam ElvenLord, you were really prepared for this meeting :D I'm impressed [end]
[ 18:11:48 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 18:11:52 ] Meissa Anunthiel > - Dreads have lost their uniqueness, sure, what's the problem with that? They cost a lot less too, and you can step out of them. No problem with dreads. (what others have said about supercaps is true though).
[ 18:12:07 ] Meissa Anunthiel > - Sov warfare is supposed to be a means to an end.All the other points have already been raised. This proposal adds nothing...Plus what elven said.
[ 18:12:15 ] Meissa Anunthiel > Oh, and lag? Really? You want to raise lag again? [/end]
[ 18:12:20 ] Mynxee > vuk go
[ 18:12:24 ] Vuk Lau > I just wanted to add that my idea to implement goal for small scale warfare is to connect it with PI as mentioned here http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Incentivizing_0.0_(CSM)#Other_Input
[ 18:13:08 ] Vuk Lau > and I agree that we should raise sov for discussion in december along as other 0.0 issue we gather till then
[ 18:13:15 ] Vuk Lau > end
[ 18:13:23 ] Mynxee > sok go
[ 18:13:24 ] Sokratesz > many items on there were also touched upon during csm meetings or in iceland and/or are part of other proposals, but I support the general idea [end]   also afk 2 mins need to empty my bladder [ moar end]
[ 18:13:33 ] Mynxee > elven go
[ 18:13:36 ] ElvenLord > I do propose that you add a discussion on sov for the next official summit and go over all previous proposals + go trough backlog items cause there is a lot to improve in it
[ 18:13:42 ] ElvenLord > [end]
[ 18:13:46 ] mazzilliu > !
[ 18:14:04 ] Mynxee > noted, elven, and agreed, obviously
[ 18:14:07 ] Mynxee > mazz go
[ 18:14:09 ] mazzilliu > the reason for me making this proposal is that it is literally an aggregate opinion of players voicing their concerns with the problems of sov warfare
[ 18:14:33 ] mazzilliu > i went through a bunch of sov posts and such, and collected the most often voiced problems and put them in that list
[ 18:14:41 ] mazzilliu > from eveo, and from my corp
[ 18:14:48 ] mazzilliu > end
[ 18:15:00 ] Dierdra Vaal > vote? :)
[ 18:15:04 ] Mynxee > i think we are probably raedy to vote on this
[ 18:15:06 ] Korvin > why?
[ 18:15:24 ] Mynxee > well good question. does it bring up anything new?
[ 18:15:32 ] mazzilliu > !
[ 18:15:38 ] Mynxee > mazz
[ 18:15:44 ] Dierdra Vaal > maz brought it to the table through legitimate means. we cant just ignore it
[ 18:15:52 ] Dierdra Vaal > but you can vote no if you dont like it/feel its not needed
[ 18:16:10 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 18:16:24 ] mazzilliu > does it have to bring up something new? we've got to figure out what to bring to CCP and this is the thing i get the most, and the loudest complaints about.  sov has been out for 3/4 of a year now and nothing has been done to it
[ 18:16:40 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 18:16:44 ] mazzilliu > if i dont bring up some sov issue, and get ccp to look at it, then i would be exactly as bad of a csm as youall accuse me of being
[ 18:16:48 ] Mynxee > but its the same point as the other duplicate issue...we CAN bring it up witho ut a vote
[ 18:16:49 ] mazzilliu > end
[ 18:16:55 ] Mynxee > teadaze go
[ 18:17:09 ] TeaDaze > It isn't an exhaustive list and doesn't really have any solutions other than to get CCP to do something - but maybe we need that
[ 18:17:11 ] mazzilliu > okay, then what do i have to do to being it up without a vote?  because i dont see any submission thread for that
[ 18:17:38 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 18:17:44 ] Mynxee > when we prepare the agenda for the december summit you propose sov fixes as a topic
[ 18:17:54 ] Mynxee > we collaboratively agree on the session topics to be discussed
[ 18:17:58 ] Mynxee > i'm sure we'd all agree on this one
[ 18:18:09 ] mazzilliu > okay, thats something you know about and i dont, because all of you have been to the first summit and i havent
[ 18:18:13 ] Mynxee > continue teadaze...
[ 18:18:37 ] Mynxee > (mazz: now you know, it wont get forgotten about, don't worry)
[ 18:18:48 ] TeaDaze > There are related issues such as dreads not having a role past pos bashing and the fact that figherbombers can hit sov structures. Do we need to be more specific in this proposal, or agree than a sov interation roundtable is needed at the Dec summit?
[ 18:19:29 ] TeaDaze > Flipping sov shouldn't be a 2 hour thing like in other games but the reliance on supercaps to do sov warfare is not a great thing [end]
[ 18:19:31 ] Vuk Lau > dreads have their role just for the record
[ 18:19:31 ] Mynxee > i agree 100% on the latter as a more effective approach to getting these issues heard and discussed.
[ 18:19:45 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 18:19:48 ] Meissa Anunthiel > It does have to bring something new/different, or the disutation needs to have changed drastically, otherwise it's just pointless. There's already a "past issues" scheduled for every meeting, and if it's big enough, we can make a separate point for it.
[ 18:19:54 ] Sokratesz > !
[ 18:20:00 ] Meissa Anunthiel > but other than that, a roundtable is a good idea.
[ 18:20:02 ] Meissa Anunthiel > [/end]
[ 18:20:07 ] Mynxee > trebor go
[ 18:20:08 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Raise it in the internal forum as a topic for discussion in December; ask CCP for a position paper on current status and plans in advance of the meeting, for purposes of efficiency in meeting. [end] (typed in advance of some of above discussion)
[ 18:20:43 ] Mynxee > also as it is a complicated issue we can request a two hour session like low sec got the last time. so we have time to really work it.
[ 18:20:46 ] Mynxee > sok go
[ 18:21:09 ] Sokratesz > apologies, but I have to go, next alt has my vote [end]
[ 18:21:15 ] Mynxee > NOTE: I have already crearted a thread in the internal forums for December Summit agenda. Please use that
[ 18:21:22 ] Mynxee > alright
[ 18:21:32 ] Mynxee > to sum up, mazz are you withdrawing this from vote?
[ 18:21:37 ] mazzilliu > sure
[ 18:21:44 ] Mynxee > in lieu of putting it on december summit, then.
[ 18:21:44 ] mazzilliu > turn it into a round table instead or whatever you call it
[ 18:21:51 ] Mynxee > session
[ 18:21:57 ] Mynxee > alright
[ 18:22:11 ] TeaDaze > (agree that it needs a 2 hour session too)
[ 18:22:12 ] Mynxee > noted.
[ 18:22:28 ] Mynxee > next issue then Allow Remote Jump Clone Removal http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Allow_remote_jumpclone_removal_%28csm%29
[ 18:22:32 ] Mynxee > mazz, present please.
[ 18:22:42 ] mazzilliu > ok
[ 18:22:54 ] mazzilliu > proposal is to allow you to remove a jump clone without actually being in the station the jc is in
[ 18:22:55 ] mazzilliu > end
[ 18:22:58 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 18:23:01 ] Vuk Lau > !
[ 18:23:18 ] Mynxee > tea go
[ 18:23:52 ] TeaDaze > Support, plus would add clone vats to that as well, because currently to get a JC out of clone vat on a ship that is inactive requires GM assistance [end]
[ 18:24:06 ] mazzilliu > !
[ 18:24:09 ] T'Amber > !
[ 18:24:15 ] Mynxee > vuk go
[ 18:24:25 ] Vuk Lau > I find this highly annoying, so i support this
[ 18:24:28 ] Vuk Lau > end
[ 18:24:38 ] Mynxee > mazz go
[ 18:24:53 ] mazzilliu > can i add that to the proposal, ive never had a clone in a mothership so i didnt know that.  i dont know what the *policy and procedure* is for changing wikis during a meeting but its a good point
[ 18:25:12 ] Vuk Lau > just add it
[ 18:25:14 ] mazzilliu > end
[ 18:25:15 ] mazzilliu > okay
[ 18:25:15 ] Vuk Lau > to thw wiki
[ 18:25:16 ] Mynxee > clone vat also fits on rorqual btw
[ 18:25:32 ] TeaDaze > (It wasn't my clone, it was a corp mates in a rorq and the ship had been sold or something)
[ 18:25:47 ] Mynxee > yes make the change and when we do vote, it will be with that change assuming to have been made.
[ 18:25:49 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 18:26:02 ] Mynxee > more to say mazz, or are you done with previous ! ?
[ 18:26:08 ] mazzilliu > i said end
[ 18:26:12 ] Mynxee > tamber go
[ 18:26:13 ] mazzilliu > up there^^^^
[ 18:26:14 ] T'Amber > Great idea mazz, to the point and extremely useful, i suggest a vote. I wasn't aware of the Supercap problem and this seems like a massive waste of GM time[/end]
[ 18:26:21 ] Mynxee > (oh i see it )
[ 18:26:24 ] Mynxee > trebor go
[ 18:26:26 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Proposal is not unreasonable, but do not be surprised if it gets a very low priority because of cost-benefit calculation. [end]
[ 18:26:35 ] Mynxee > i think we can vote
[ 18:26:44 ] Mynxee > Y or No to pass this?
[ 18:26:45 ] TeaDaze > y
[ 18:26:47 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Yes
[ 18:26:47 ] mazzilliu > yes
[ 18:26:47 ] T'Amber > Yes
[ 18:26:47 ] Korvin > y
[ 18:26:49 ] Dierdra Vaal > Y
[ 18:26:53 ] Vuk Lau > y
[ 18:27:00 ] Mynxee > Y with amendments as stated for clone vat bay added to wiki
[ 18:27:10 ] mazzilliu > i made the change in the wiki just now
[ 18:27:14 ] mazzilliu > http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Allow_remote_jumpclone_removal_%28csm%29#Potential_Solution
[ 18:27:30 ] Meissa Anunthiel > yes
[ 18:27:42 ] TeaDaze > Passed 9 for
[ 18:27:49 ] Meissa Anunthiel > (sorry for late vote, screen froze)
[ 18:27:59 ] Mynxee > good job on the change to wiki, mazz.
[ 18:28:22 ] Mynxee > next and final issue today: Better Account Status Notification http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Better_Account_status_notification_%28csm%29
[ 18:28:26 ] Mynxee > mazz go for it
[ 18:28:27 ] ElvenLord > !
[ 18:28:41 ] mazzilliu > people paying with a recurring credit card payment dont get any account status notification
[ 18:28:54 ] mazzilliu > so ccp should give them better controls for their billing period notifications
[ 18:29:11 ] mazzilliu > end
[ 18:29:18 ] Mynxee > elven go
[ 18:29:24 ] ElvenLord > I have a problem with this as mazz is mixing 2 completley diferent types of payments. Plex is so called day to day payment, kinda a manual payment that can not be automatic.
[ 18:29:39 ] ElvenLord > CC payment is constant payment that you agree on
[ 18:30:04 ] ElvenLord > you get a notification that you will get charged each month (or more)
[ 18:30:04 ] mazzilliu > !
[ 18:30:20 ] ElvenLord > untill your CC expires or you cancel your subscription
[ 18:30:28 ] ElvenLord > I get mails regulary
[ 18:30:50 ] ElvenLord > 2 months before my CC expires and then 1 month, 15 days, 7 days ....
[ 18:30:56 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 18:30:59 ] ElvenLord > so you do get notification
[ 18:31:21 ] ElvenLord > for plex since its something you need to do something before getting a plex you need a reminder
[ 18:31:44 ] T'Amber > !
[ 18:31:46 ] ElvenLord > so depending on the type of paymet you do get notifications
[ 18:32:03 ] ElvenLord > [end]
[ 18:32:07 ] Mynxee > mazz go
[ 18:32:09 ] mazzilliu > i pay for 1 account with a recurring cc payment and i get no notifications whatsoever, and the reason for this is not so that your account goes inactive accidentally.  its about control of money and giving people tools to have better control of these
[ 18:32:11 ] mazzilliu > incoming bills
[ 18:32:19 ] mazzilliu > end
[ 18:32:29 ] Mynxee > ccp does know how many days of sub you have left on current payment even with recurring, though. that coudl be reported and might be useful for people who live close to the edge of their credit line or visa debit card. end.
[ 18:32:34 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 18:32:42 ] Meissa Anunthiel > players get a notification is the subscription fails to renew. Other than that they get their CC statements. I don't see the problem, really. [/end]
[ 18:32:48 ] Meissa Anunthiel > s/is/if/
[ 18:32:59 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 18:33:04 ] Mynxee > yeah :) i never pay attn to it. end.
[ 18:33:07 ] Mynxee > tamber go
[ 18:33:09 ] T'Amber > THe data is already available for this, i dont see why it would be bad. I do get mails for my CC but only after they've been paid. [/end]
[ 18:33:20 ] Mynxee > trebor go
[ 18:33:52 ] Trebor Daehdoow > I must agree with mazz here, if I understand the point correctly. Being able to get a warning that your card will be charged will be useful to people, especially those using debit cards who get hit with fees if the account becomes overdrawn. [end]
[ 18:34:20 ] T'Amber > ^^
[ 18:34:56 ] ElvenLord > !
[ 18:35:04 ] Mynxee > elven go
[ 18:35:07 ] ElvenLord > I hate mail spam
[ 18:35:21 ] ElvenLord > and I prefer not to get notifications for every acc
[ 18:35:22 ] Korvin > ! i hate to use credit cards for the internet payments, so ill take 3 min afk [end]
[ 18:35:27 ] ElvenLord > since I have a lot of them
[ 18:35:28 ] TeaDaze > (Make it optional)
[ 18:35:37 ] ElvenLord > making it optional is a good way
[ 18:35:42 ] Helen Highwater > !
[ 18:35:42 ] T'Amber > ^^ CSM mail was put in my spahm box by google lols.
[ 18:35:51 ] ElvenLord > otherwise I would kill someone for 30+ mails every month
[ 18:35:56 ] ElvenLord > [end]
[ 18:36:12 ] Mynxee > i was talking about displaying the number of days left on current sub on the login screen as advance warning actually. but having mail notice be optional is cool too. end.
[ 18:36:16 ] Mynxee > helen go
[ 18:36:21 ] T'Amber > !
[ 18:36:39 ] Helen Highwater > generally speaking MMO companies don't like to remind people that their subs are about to renew because that createswhat's known as a decision moment. Decision moments are bad because there's a chance that the customer will make the decision you don't
[ 18:36:42 ] Helen Highwater > want him to.
[ 18:36:50 ] Helen Highwater > [end]
[ 18:36:56 ] Mynxee > tamber go
[ 18:37:00 ] T'Amber > I also assumed what Mynxee did.
[ 18:37:17 ] T'Amber > A count down when you login would be awesome. More spahm mail not. Definately needs option box. [/end]
[ 18:38:08 ] Mynxee > I suggest mazz add some of these ideas to the potential solutions section of teh wiki page for this issue
[ 18:38:13 ] mazzilliu > okay
[ 18:38:22 ] mazzilliu > heres what ill add
[ 18:38:24 ] Mynxee > if she agrees to do that, i'll vote for the proposal.
[ 18:38:34 ] mazzilliu > option(default to off) to send mails X days before billing occurs
[ 18:38:56 ] mazzilliu > do we need anything else added?
[ 18:39:26 ] mazzilliu > oh also, display number of days on login screen till next billing period, but probably mention that the player does not need to take any action
[ 18:39:59 ] Mynxee > works for me those are the two things that were mentioned, I believe. comments people?
[ 18:40:05 ] mazzilliu > im asking you guys, you can just speak to me
[ 18:40:10 ] Mynxee > or can we vote with those amendments ?
[ 18:40:19 ] Dierdra Vaal > vote :)
[ 18:40:20 ] mazzilliu > im adding thw two to the wiki now
[ 18:40:22 ] Meissa Anunthiel > yes we can!
[ 18:40:27 ] mazzilliu > voting yes
[ 18:40:31 ] Mynxee > lols ok mazz
[ 18:40:42 ] Mynxee > let's vote y or no to pass this issue with amendments stated above
[ 18:40:45 ] Dierdra Vaal > y
[ 18:40:45 ] Mynxee > Y
[ 18:40:48 ] Meissa Anunthiel > yes
[ 18:40:49 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Y
[ 18:40:49 ] TeaDaze > y
[ 18:41:06 ] T'Amber > Yes
[ 18:41:59 ] Dierdra Vaal > 7 yes
[ 18:42:08 ] Dierdra Vaal > issue passes
[ 18:42:22 ] Mynxee > well. vuk, korvin are present
[ 18:42:24 ] Vuk Lau > y sorry
[ 18:42:34 ] Korvin > y
[ 18:42:57 ] Vuk Lau > my FC meeting just started but now I will open 2 windows
[ 18:43:24 ] Korvin > disband them and lets go on :D
[ 18:43:32 ] Mynxee > waiting for official teadaze vote tally
[ 18:43:37 ] Vuk Lau > Korvin sanctums are calling you
[ 18:43:39 ] Mynxee > *grin*
[ 18:43:47 ] Mynxee > 9 for, passed
[ 18:43:50 ] Mynxee > alright. that concludes teh Issues discussion. Now onto other business, DV has a topic to address about the wiki.
[ 18:44:02 ] Mynxee > DV go for it
[ 18:44:03 ] Dierdra Vaal > si
[ 18:44:03 ] Dierdra Vaal > CSM wiki updates - specifically the CSM2 and CSM4 issues. Hows that going? Especially since vuk wussed out (like a pansy! :P)
[ 18:44:16 ] Mynxee > ha i'm going to finsih the csm2 ones
[ 18:44:42 ] Mynxee > i had other stuff that had to be done before it, but that's squared away, so will address the rest of the csm2 issues this week
[ 18:44:50 ] Mynxee > end.
[ 18:45:00 ] Mynxee > who was supposed to do csm4?
[ 18:45:19 ] Dierdra Vaal > I think it would be best if people involved in that CSM did it
[ 18:45:23 ] Mynxee > me too
[ 18:45:29 ] Dierdra Vaal > which would be elvenlord or TD I guess
[ 18:45:32 ] T'Amber > /emote looks at elven
[ 18:45:39 ] T'Amber > :)
[ 18:45:42 ] Mynxee > /emote looks at elven
[ 18:46:40 ] T'Amber > Meanwhile, masstesting last night caused alot of positive chatter
[ 18:46:52 ] Dierdra Vaal > how many people did they get this time?
[ 18:46:56 ] Mynxee > tamber hold that thought a second
[ 18:46:58 ] TeaDaze > What exactly was the issue with CSM4 proposals? I thought trebor had updated all the states etc?
[ 18:47:03 ] T'Amber > Three fleets, too many people for 2 :)
[ 18:47:06 ] Dierdra Vaal > did he?
[ 18:47:09 ] Mynxee > let's wrap up the wiki discussion first
[ 18:47:11 ] Dierdra Vaal > if so, he didnt tell any of us
[ 18:47:12 ] Mynxee > PLEASE
[ 18:47:14 ] TeaDaze > Can we stick to one converation thread at once
[ 18:47:46 ] Mynxee > Trebor, did you go through the CSM4 issue wiki pages and update them?
[ 18:47:52 ] Mynxee > i thought you did
[ 18:47:52 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Yep
[ 18:47:58 ] Trebor Daehdoow > As best I could
[ 18:48:01 ] Mynxee > ok did you finish that?
[ 18:48:18 ] Trebor Daehdoow > I basically did a pass on all the issues, trying to assign them correctly.
[ 18:48:37 ] Mynxee > to the right category , you mean. but did you update vote info or anything?
[ 18:48:49 ] Mynxee > (if it was missing) ... or add missing issues if there were any?
[ 18:48:49 ] Dierdra Vaal > http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/End_ghost_%28unpaid_account%29_datacore_production_%28CSM%29
[ 18:48:50 ] Trebor Daehdoow > No, I didn't do that.
[ 18:48:56 ] Mynxee > alright
[ 18:48:57 ] Dierdra Vaal > that one should be set as resolved and isnt
[ 18:49:20 ] Mynxee > soemone from csm4 needs to take responsibility for this....is anyone going to step up?
[ 18:49:22 ] Dierdra Vaal > so it seems its not been completely overhauled?
[ 18:49:30 ] TeaDaze > Hang on, it hasn't gone live
[ 18:49:35 ] Mynxee > no, still work to be done.
[ 18:49:51 ] TeaDaze > I'm not going to suggest we resolve stuff till it is in game
[ 18:50:00 ] Mynxee > i agree with that teadaze.
[ 18:50:12 ] Dierdra Vaal > I thought CCP already disabled it
[ 18:50:13 ] Dierdra Vaal > ?
[ 18:50:17 ] Mynxee > but if vote info isn't there, it needs added to eaach issue
[ 18:50:29 ] TeaDaze > Have you seen a patch note saying it has?
[ 18:50:38 ] Dierdra Vaal > devblog I thought it was
[ 18:50:43 ] Mynxee > and the hunt for the elusive missing issues needs to be done to ensure the CSM4 issue wiki pages are all there and accounted for.
[ 18:51:17 ] TeaDaze > Patch notes or gtfo IMO :P
[ 18:51:37 ] Dierdra Vaal > "his particular change is a little different though, as part of the code is needed for a bugfix, meaning we will be deploying it in the near future instead of this winter."
[ 18:51:40 ] Dierdra Vaal > http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=784
[ 18:52:18 ] TeaDaze > There may be missing voting results, I'll have a look - But a vague promise on a dev blog doesn't not a resolved issue make
[ 18:52:29 ] Mynxee > that's not rsolved then. imho.
[ 18:52:32 ] Mynxee > that's a promise.
[ 18:52:34 ] Dierdra Vaal > fair enough
[ 18:53:03 ] TeaDaze > (fail double negative is fail, Tea needs a break)
[ 18:53:15 ] Mynxee > ok we'll work out divvying up the work for this offline, so as not to prolong the meeting.
[ 18:53:34 ] Mynxee > tamber, continue with mass test now!
[ 18:54:27 ] Mynxee > if he doesn't speak by 18:55 we will adjourn.
[ 18:54:50 ] Mynxee > ===============================CSM MEETING 009 ADJOURNED===============================.